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Rob and Jesse sort through their feelings after Trump's second first month in office.
Rob and Jesse get real on energy prices with PowerLines’ Charles Hua.
Rob and Jesse talk Trump, contracts, and climate messaging with the lawmaker from Hawaii.
Rob and Jesse talk with former Ford economist Ellen Hughes-Cromwick.
Jesse and Heatmap deputy editor Jillian Goodman talk Canadian tariffs with Rory Johnston.
Rob and Jesse talk with Wharton’s Benjamin Keys, then dig into Trump’s big Day One.
Rob and Jesse go deep on the universe’s smallest molecule.
Hydrogen. What are you even supposed to think about it? If you’ve spent serious time focusing on climate policy, you’ve heard the hype about hydrogen — about the miraculous things that it might do to eliminate carbon pollution from cars, power plants, steel mills, or more. You’ve also seen that hype fizzle out — even as governments have poured billions of dollars into making it work.
On this week’s episode of Shift Key, Rob and Jesse give you a rough guide for how to think about clean hydrogen, which could help decarbonize the industrial — even the molecular — side of the economy by storing energy and helping to make clean steel and chemicals. Do we really need hydrogen to fight climate change? Where would it be useful? And why has it failed to take off in the past? What will Trump and China mean for global hydrogen policy? Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap, and Jesse Jenkins, a professor of energy systems engineering at Princeton University.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Here is an excerpt from our conversation:
Jesse Jenkins: This is the next crazy thing that I think is just starting to kind of bubble up to the public awareness: Basically, hydrogen itself is not a climate forcer. It doesn’t warm the planet the way methane or [hydrofluorocarbons] or CO2 does. But it does react in the atmosphere in ways that increase the concentration of greenhouse gases.
Robinson Meyer: I think specifically that right now, we talk about when methane leaks into the atmosphere. And it may apply to other greenhouse gases, too, but the big one that you tend to hear about is that when methane leaks into the atmosphere from natural gas — and of course, we’re very worried about methane leaks. Because the thing about methane is that it traps a lot of heat, but it breaks down really quickly, right? So it tends to break down, unlike carbon dioxide, which, when you release it into the atmosphere. sticks around for millennia. When you release it into the atmosphere, it captures a lot of heat, but then breaks down into a smaller amount of CO2 after about 20 years.
The issue, and why it breaks down, that — we never talk about this, or we had no need to talk about this until hydrogen — and it’s crazy because the world is a closed system, or a largely closed system, right? Why it breaks down is it reacts with the free hydroxyl radicals floating around in the atmosphere.
Jenkins: Right, OH molecules.
Meyer: Well, what else reacts with OH molecules? Hydrogen. And so if we leak too much industrially produced hydrogen into the atmosphere, it could mess with the rate of breakdown of all methane in the global atmosphere, and thus increase the global warming potential of natural gas.
Jenkins: It makes the methane last, traps more heat, yeah. So let the record show that Robinson Meyer, the journalist, accurately captured the atmospheric chemistry of this process better than Jesse Jenkins, professor at Princeton. Nicely done.
This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by …
Intersolar & Energy Storage North America is the premier U.S.-based conference and trade show focused on solar, energy storage, and EV charging infrastructure. To learn more, visit intersolar.us.
Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.
Rob and Jesse talk all things solar, steel, and cement with CREA’s Lauri Myllyvirta.
China’s greenhouse gas emissions were essentially flat this year — or they recorded a tiny increase, according to a recent report from the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air, or CREA. A third of experts surveyed by the report believe that its coal emissions have peaked. Has the world’s No. 1 emitter of carbon pollution now turned a corner on climate change?
Lauri Myllyvirta is the co-founder and lead analyst at CREA, an independent research organization focused on air pollution and headquartered in Finland. Myllyvirta has worked on climate policy, pollution, and energy issues in Asia for the past decade, and he lived in Beijing from 2015 to 2019.
On this week’s episode of Shift Key, Rob and Jesse talk with Lauri about whether China’s emissions have peaked, why the country is still building so much coal power (along with gobs of solar and wind), and the energy-intensive shift that its economy has taken in the past five years. Shift Key is hosted by Robinson Meyer, the founding executive editor of Heatmap, and Jesse Jenkins, a professor of energy systems engineering at Princeton University.
Subscribe to “Shift Key” and find this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also add the show’s RSS feed to your podcast app to follow us directly.
Here is an excerpt from our conversation:
Jesse Jenkins: So there’s sort of two key variables here. And we hit both those: the growth rate in new clean energy supplies, particularly in the electricity sector, and then the pace of demand growth. And this has been the story globally, the argument that we actually haven’t really seen any energy transition, only energy addition, right? We’re adding enough new clean energy, maybe, to meet growth, but not actually to drive down emissions, which would require us to exceed the growth rate and demand, right? So we can eat into the market share of existing fossil generation.
And that’s sort of the fundamental equation in China as well, right? Is if demand is growing rapidly, more rapidly than, clean electricity additions, emissions go up. And if the opposite is true, emissions go down. There’s also, it seems like, some evidence that the economy itself is slowing, or at least going through a bit of a structural change, right? So still growing, but not growing, perhaps, at the target rates that government has set. I think the expectations for this year, if I’m not mistaken, are under 5% growth, maybe 4.5% to 4.7% — so, you know, in U.S. terms, that’s still quite rapid, but in Chinese terms, a bit slower than the goal. And part of that is a slowdown in the construction industry — is that right? — which is another major driver of emissions due to cement consumption and steel consumption.
Lauri Myllyvirta: Yeah, so I’m a bit allergic to talking about the economy as a whole — you know, “the economy” is slowing down, or “the economy” is speeding up. Because the economy is, of course, made up of a lot of different sectors, and in order to understand energy demand, those sectors are not created equal. So if you have a 5% GDP growth that comes from service industries, from consumer-facing industries, that can mean much less than 5% growth in energy demand. And that’s what China was seeing until the Covid period.
China was actually making a pretty big deal out of improving the energy, or reducing the energy-intensity of the economy. And that’s what stopped in 2020. So since 2020, there has been essentially no reduction in the energy intensity, energy consumption, and GDP has grown at the same rate. And when you consider the fact that there is a lot of technical improvement still going on, different processes are getting more energy efficient, then that means that the structure of the economy has, in fact, gotten more energy-intensive. And that’s the key concern. The less than 5% growth now is driving faster growth in total energy demand than the 6%, even 7% growth was during the previous decade.
This episode of Shift Key is sponsored by …
Intersolar & Energy Storage North America is the premier U.S.-based conference and trade show focused on solar, energy storage, and EV charging infrastructure. To learn more, visit intersolar.us.
Music for Shift Key is by Adam Kromelow.
